It’s Never Too Late: High School for Adults | Highlands Community Charter & Technical Schools

Jonathan Raymond: [00:00:00] Our motto is it's never too late, and we remind our students that if they want to get to where they wanna be, that they need to continue on with their studies. And, and we make it work for them. If they want to accelerate and get it, their degree in, in two years, or if it takes them six years, we figure out a way.

And, and many of our students stop and start because of things happening in their lives, and so we want them to know that, you know, there's no wrong door. We have lots of on-ramps and off-ramps for our students, and we provide full wraparound support services

Jeff Holden: Welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast Network. Our purpose and passion are simple: to highlight the incredible nonprofits that make our communities stronger. Each episode is a chance for these organizations to tell their story in their words, sharing not just what they do, but why it matters to the people they [00:01:00] serve, to their supporters, and to all of us who believe in the power of community.

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When you hear charter school, you probably think K through 12. Highlands Community Charter and Technical Schools is something very different, and the population [00:02:00] they serve makes this one of the more interesting education conversations I've had. My guest is Jonathan Raymond, CEO and executive director of Highlands Charter Schools.

Jonathan has spent much of his career in public education, including previously serving as superintendent here in Sacramento. Now he's back leading a public high school for adults 22 and older, many of whom are immigrants, refugees, formerly incarcerated, or people who simply weren't well-served by the traditional education system.

The average Highland student is over 40. 70% are parents, and for nearly 90%, English is not their native language. Some arrive with advanced degrees from their home countries that aren't recognized here. Others may not even be literate in their native language, yet they share something very important. They want an education, they want an opportunity, and they want to become economically self-sufficient.

Highlands provides high school diplomas, English language instruction, career and technical education, [00:03:00] and the wraparound support necessary to help these students succeed. And as Jonathan explains, whether it takes someone two years or six years to get there, their philosophy is pretty simple. It's never too late.

But there's another side to this story. Jonathan stepped into Highlands following a highly critical state audit and a period of significant turmoil. What has happened since is a story of accountability, reform, rebuilding trust, innovation, and some pretty remarkable growth. This is a conversation about second chances, persistence, and what can happen when education is designed around the student rather than expecting the student to fit the system.

Jonathan Raymond, welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast Network. 

Jonathan Raymond: Thank you, Jeff. It's great to be here. Really appreciate the opportunity. 

Jeff Holden: Well, I am honored to have you here knowing that you were a prior school superintendent some- Twice, 

Jonathan Raymond: actually ... 

Jeff Holden: some years back, here once and in Boston, yes? 

Jonathan Raymond: New Rochelle, New York.

Jeff Holden: New Rochelle, New York. [00:04:00] And you're back again. 

Jonathan Raymond: I'm back again, right. Right. 

Jeff Holden: And I think we're very pleased to have you back because you are now the CEO and executive director of Highlands Charter Schools. And a lot of people think of charter, well, that's K through 12, and that's it. You know, they don't realize that there's so much more to a charter school.

Would you give us an overview of what Highlands Community Charter and Technical Schools are? Because you're not a K through 12, and you're, you're very different and very well known in Sacramento. 

Jonathan Raymond: Well, Jeff, honestly, before I applied for the job, I wasn't so sure myself. So one can always learn new things.

But, you know, Highlands, so we are a public school. Charter schools are public schools. We are a public high school for adults. So our students are 22 years and older. They do not have a high school diploma. Many of them have come from, you know, other, other countries. We serve a vast majority of students who [00:05:00] are immigrants, refugees, formerly incarcerated, and certain individuals who just the traditional system that you just referred to did not, did not serve them well.

The average age of our students is over 40. 70% are parents. Right now, about 88%, English is not their native language, and the vast majority, you know, would be considered, you know, eligible for free or reduced price lunch, or they live at or below the federal poverty guideline. 

Jeff Holden: That's a spectrum. And 

Jonathan Raymond: it's- It is.

It is. And you know, it's a population that really did not exist when I was superintendent here from, you know, 2009 to 2014. And still largely today, you know, even invisible because they, they blend into their communities. Mm-hmm. They wanna be part of their new country, you know, many of them. You know, they don't like being on public assistance.

They wanna be self-sufficient, which is, has brought them to Highlands. 

Jeff Holden: Which is the benefit of the school and the intent. With that disparate group of, you know, [00:06:00] immigrants from so many different nationalities, how do you accommodate them? And, and not only nationalities, but you have people who are coming here who are educated in their own country, degreed in their own country, yet unable to find work here because those degrees aren't accepted.

That's such a broad spectrum of people that you're dealing with, how do you accommodate all that? 

Jonathan Raymond: You're, you're, you're so right on with that, Jeff. We have some of our students, they've come from their native countries with multiple degrees, master's, even advanced degrees, engine- engineers, doctors, uh, but they don't speak English or they don't have a high school diploma and their degrees are not, are not recognized.

And we have individuals who are coming from countries where they are illiterate in their own native language. So that variability in our classrooms, you know, is both a huge challenge and it's the opportunity. We're fortunate that s- that many of our teachers were former students, so they understand the, [00:07:00] the challenges that our, our current students are facing.

Our, our, our team speaks multiple languages. We are available- By 

Jeff Holden: necessity, I'm sure, right? 

Jonathan Raymond: Absolutely by necessity. And, and I, and as a way, I mean, I think for, for so many of our students, um, you know, Highlands, it's, it's more than a school. You know, it's, it's a, it's a second home for them. They feel safe.

They feel secure. They feel trusted and seen and heard and respected, and that's a huge, that's a huge part of it. When you're able to connect with someone in their native language, you know, they feel seen and, and respected. And, and our staff is incredibly talented. They are dedicated. But, you know, they make things work for our students.

You know, where you were going with your question was, you know, we-- no two students are, are the same. They all have incredible stories. Many of them are stories of incredible persistence, and they've overcome tremendous things to get to this country, and now they wanna get their education. They wanna [00:08:00] become economically self-sufficient, you know?

And our team works to meet those needs 

Jeff Holden: Jonathan, tell us the scope of programs. A-and not all of them obviously, but there's a technical school, there's the, the, the school, the charter school, and I would imagine within, you know, all those frameworks and curriculum, there are subsets for specialties as well.

What, what does it look like? 

Jonathan Raymond: So we are, again, we're, we're an adult high school, so we have a high school curriculum. When students enroll, they're enrolling in a high school pathway. Now, we also offer career and technical education classes, so if, if a student is interested i-in a particular course or a class or even a certificate program, you know, we're, we're able to accommodate those students.

And because so many of our students are non-, uh, native English speakers, you know, we, we offer, you know, English language classes to prepare students to be able to access that high school [00:09:00] curriculum. So, you know, students, many students, they just wanna come, they wanna learn English. There are so few providers today.

You know, my old school district in Sacramento used to have adult education. You know, many of those programs have been, have been reduced. They are also at-- There's a cost to those programs. Our programs are no cost to our, our students. So they can come, they can learn English, and then they can continue on, you know, with their high school program.

We have, we have two different schools, so, you know, two different modalities for students to learn. We have an in-person school where students come every day- 

Jeff Holden: Oh ... 

Jonathan Raymond: to learn and study. We have both AM and PM classes to accommodate the varied needs of our students who are, again, parents. They h- they work one, two, three jobs.

And we also offer a non-classroom-based school or an independent study school for students who want to learn virtually and want to learn at their own pace and at their own, their own time. So, you know, those two different programs [00:10:00] are, are meant to accommodate the, the, the variable needs of our students.

Jeff Holden: How about actual physical classrooms? How many locations do you have today? 

Jonathan Raymond: We have six locations now- Okay ... today where students are learning. I believe, I wanna say four of those teach classes during both the AM and the PM, and, and we're expanding. We opened the year last year, you know, after a very tough year- Mm-hmm

I know we'll talk a little more about that, with about nine hundred students. As of today, you know, late August, we're almost twenty-two hundred students. 

Jeff Holden: And I would imagine the demand far exceeds the capability today, knowing just what our immigrant population looks like and How many people want education and the ability to get it at no cost is, is just amazing.

What does that look like? What do you anticipate or see in terms of demand on the programs? 

Jonathan Raymond: So we, we do have demand. We do have waiting lists. I would imagine. You know, we have a number of students that are, that are [00:11:00] pre-registered, ready to, to enroll. You know, some of that is, is now constrained by space.

Some of it's a bit constrained by, by some budget issues. You know, we, we may get into those a little later. And of course, then y- you know, finding educators, finding teachers. All of our teachers have to be certificated, and today there's a high demand for certificated teachers, even though the teaching profession is under a lot of stress right now.

Jeff Holden: In terms of the programs themselves, are there particular programs that you see greatest demand? A- and I'm assuming it might be maybe English, the language courses. 

Jonathan Raymond: It is. It is, Jeff. There are so few providers right now out in the Sacramento area that are, are offering just English language classes.

There's a huge demand. It's not being offered at the community colleges. In fact, to get into the community colleges such as American River, you have to have also a high school degree or a high school equivalency, and in [00:12:00] order to access financial assistance, you have to be at a certain level in your English language proficiency.

So huge demand for English language services, you know, ESL or ELD. But then, you know, also helping our students then be able to access the curriculum. It takes more than just simple, basic English. 

Jeff Holden: It's-- why does, why does that upset me so much to think that the access to English learning is so difficult?

It, why is that? Is, do you have a theory that you can postulate here for us? 

Jonathan Raymond: You know, I, and I think it gets back to, you know, you know, what is a system and what is a community's priorities? You know, there's 4.3 million adults in the state of California who do not have a high school diploma. I mean, we, you know, we think about what percentage that is of the, uh, the adult workforce.

You know, it's a very, very high percentage. Um- 

Jeff Holden: Yeah, it's about 10%. 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah, and adult education programs have largely been cut here in California. You know, it ha- it really hasn't been a, [00:13:00] a priority. I can't speak s- you know, so specifically about other states, but, you know, many of these programs were federally funded.

Mm-hmm. You know, many were also funded by philanthropy, and there, there's been a, a l- a lot of stress on that system as the federal government has shifted priorities. States are shifting priorities, and, you know, what gets left out are, are often, you know, those that are, are, as I said, the unspoken, sometimes the invisible, and many in our community, the Afghani, Ukrainian, Russian, you know, Persian, Iranian community, again, you know, they're, they're not the ones making all the noise necessarily or advocating for themselves, yet their needs are real, and they wanna be part of the, of their new community, you know- Mm-hmm

which is the United States. 

Jeff Holden: ability for tho- those organizations, those people, those individuals to engage. I do know we have other nonprofits that are picking up some of that slack to do what they can with, you know, English as a second language, but it's, it's not a [00:14:00] structured program. It's not a scholastic program.

It's just a basic necessity. It's, you know, the basic, basic 

Jonathan Raymond: program. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And, you know, to the extent that they do exist, and again, there's, there's- 

Jeff Holden: Right ... 

Jonathan Raymond: demand far, far exceeds what the supply is today. And sometimes a student doesn't, doesn't even realize until they get into the program that, yes, they need to learn English, but then they need to continue on.

Mm-hmm. We, we have a, a staff member in our school, you know, she had two master's degrees. She has two master's degrees from her native Ukraine. She thought when she came to this country, it would be easy for her, her to get a job, and she tells the story about going through a drive-thru at McDonald's, and, and she was so traumatized because she couldn't order coffee.

And so she realized she needed to learn English, and along the way, she also realized that, you know, her degrees just wouldn't be recognized, and it was hard for her to get a job to support herself and her family without the US high school diploma. So, you know, that's what we talk to our, our students. We let [00:15:00] our former students, our current students, you know, talk to each other, so our students understand that, you know, yes, you can do this.

In fact, our motto is, "It's never too late." And, you know, we remind our students that if they want to get to where they wanna be, that they need to continue on with their studies. And, and we make it work for them. If they want to accelerate and get it, their degree in, in two years or if it takes them six years, you know, we figure out a way.

And, and many of our students stop and start because of things happening in their lives, and so we want them to know that, you know, there's no wrong door. You know, we have lots of on-ramps and off-ramps for our students, and we provide full wraparound support services. So I may have mentioned, we have, we have high school academic counselors.

We have career coaches- Mm-hmm ... and job counselors. We have student navigators, and we have social workers who provide a, a wealth of supports for our students who need more than just academics. 

Jeff Holden: And that tees us up beautifully for the next question because it, it's exemplifying the collaboration [00:16:00] that you've got in the community as a result of the diversity that you're dealing with.

You know, how many different organizations you can use the services of whatever they may be. Let, let's talk a little bit about that. Can you share some of the people that you find are good collaborators with the school? 

Jonathan Raymond: So when I arrived A- about a year ago, it was on the heels of a, a very challenging, damning, you know, state audit report that had been, been released that called out, uh, Highlands for a number of practices.

So you could imagine there was a lot of folks in the community who, you know, wanted to keep their distance or their arm's lengths from Highlands, but, you know, I would say not our community partners, right? So La Familia, Lao Family, the Mack Road Partnership, even the Sacramento Employment and Training Agencies, SETA, just to name a few.

You know, the, the Salaam Center. They, you know, they, they, they understood the important role that Highlands had. They were committed to our [00:17:00] commitment to reform and to be held accountable and to make the very necessary changes. And they also knew that there was no one else in the community to provide the services that w- that we were.

So I think with a leap of faith, you know, they, they hung in there with us and they supported us and, you know, they helped to promote our program. They showed up when we had, you know, public h- hearings. They wrote letters of support. They continue to, and they advocate on our behalf, and I think with that kind of support and, and belief, right, we were able to really, I think, turn the corner.

Without our community partners, you know, w- we wouldn't have survived to where we are today. 

Jeff Holden: And, and more to come. 

Jonathan Raymond: And more to come. Yeah. We continue to grow. You know, we've had conversations in- with the Salvation Army. We've had conversations with Goodwill Industries. We wanna get back into serving in the reentry community.

I've spent a lot of time in the last several months up in Sutter County, which is a growth opportunity for us, and I've met with organizations from the [00:18:00] food bank to Habitat for Humanity, public libraries, the Sutter County Museum, and, you know, we continue to go on and on because, again, we understand that without partnerships, you know, who are we gonna serve?

Mm-hmm. You know, they're closest to their constituents. They know what their, what their needs are, whether it's the Hispanic Alliance or other organizations up, whether it's Sacramento or up in Sutter County. And, and so, you know, we, we go there to listen, we go there to learn, and then we go there to figure out how best to serve.

Jeff Holden: As you talk about Sutter County and you mentioned the word growth, growth doesn't come without sustainability and capacity opportunities, which leads to the next question of where's the money come from? 

Jonathan Raymond: Right. 

Jeff Holden: How are you funded? Right. It's not on donations. 

Jonathan Raymond: No, it's not. It's not. You know, I've, I've been on that side.

I've been on both sides of that. But, you know, w- so we are, w- we're a publicly funded educational institution. We're, we're an adult-serving high school. We get our money largely through the state of California. We get some federal money, and it's all based on average [00:19:00] daily attendance, you know, just like a traditional- Much like our 

Jeff Holden: schools, yes

Jonathan Raymond: traditional K-12 system, which is a challenge, and we can talk more about that, but, but that's where we get our funding. 

Jeff Holden: Let's talk a little bit about that historically, 'cause that's where things got sideways. 

Jonathan Raymond: Right, 

Jeff Holden: right. And somehow you looked from Boston back to Sacramento and said, "This looks like a challenge I want to take on."

Tell us a little bit about it. 

Jonathan Raymond: Well, the, you know, certainly, you know, the mission of the school, you know, really, really, you know, deeply resonated with me. To be able to, I think, serve some of the most deserving, you know, communities here in, in Sacramento was important to me. I liked that it was a adult education program, that it was a high school diploma program.

I also liked that it ha- it offered career and technical education classes. So I, I knew the mission was, was incredibly sound and noble. I don't think I knew how serious the issues were, right? Sometimes we, we never knew. [00:20:00] But I, I knew as I think the recruiter had said, quote unquote, you know, "Highlands is a bit of a hot mess."

Well, yes, it was. You know, again, the a state audit had come out with, you know, you know, 19 findings, 18 related to lots of important compliance issues like, like, uh, contracts, job postings, salary schedules- Teacher 

Jeff Holden: certification ... 

Jonathan Raymond: teacher certifications. Mm-hmm. Yeah, a lot of compliance issues. And then there was a finding issue around attendance, you know, that, you know, I think my predecessors cared a lot about, um, a lot about, uh, enrollment, right?

Enrollment, big numbers, you know, was an, an outcome and, you know, a little lax on, you know, w- were students graduating? Were they completing courses? Were they g- were they getting jobs, and at what wages? And so a lot of the findings of the state audit was around attendance. How were we taking attendance?

Were our students, you know, meeting the required instructional minutes? So, you know, a lot of reforms were under- undertaken, and, you know, I'm really pleased to be able to share that, uh, about two weeks ago, the [00:21:00] state auditor- 

Jeff Holden: As we're recording, this is now- 

Jonathan Raymond: Mi- mid-August, we were notified by the state auditor that we are- have fully implemented all 18 of their recommendations.

In fact, we're the only one who, of the entities called out in that state au- audit who have. But we're proud of that because it, it shows a, I mean, there's tremendous hard work around that. They were challenging. But I think it says that, you know, we wanna be held accountable, right? We wanna be good public stewards of the resources.

We wanna serve this really important, you know, part of our community here, and, you know, we wanna grow it and, you know, be a school that the community can not only embrace, but be really proud of. So, you know, that was why. If the school had been in Orange County, in San Diego, again, you know, nice places to live, but I never would've left Boston to come back- Mm-hmm

to California to be in those communities. I wanted to serve Sacramento again. It was a place that I knew. I was familiar. I, I still had relationships. I could still, you know, h- you know, find my way around town, even though there's [00:22:00] been a lot, a lot more coffee shops and, and restaurants, which is a good thing.

Jeff Holden: Yes. 

Jonathan Raymond: You know, I think I still had a name and a, a reputation that would be important as we did three things: We wanted to restore trust and integrity, we wanted to raise standards, and we wanted to make decisions that were in the best interest of our students. 

Jeff Holden: Well, I, I think we're, we're certainly pleased and appreciative that you did 'cause you are purely indicative of accomplishment.

It, it was a hot mess, and it was a lot of, a lot of news and a, a lot of noise and a lot of concern. And here you are with a much reduced team as a result that clearly is committed to what they're trying to accomplish. 

Jonathan Raymond: We are. And- And I would say, Jeff, I'm the first to say, "Look, look, you know, we don't have it all right yet," right?

We're, we're still a work in progress. Work in 

Jeff Holden: progress, yep. 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah. And you know, as, as I tell our folks, "Look, let's just show up. Let's try to get a little better at what we do every day, and let's figure out a, a way to continue to work together." And, and we will improve. [00:23:00] 

Jeff Holden: Jonathan, how many people do you employ now?

Do you know roughly? 

Jonathan Raymond: We're about 153, you know, plus or minus, right? A 

Jeff Holden: lot of people. 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah. It's, it's still a pretty good size staff, but- Yes ... you know, you know, the, the Highlands that I had, had just inherited, you know, had just laid off 600 people. So that gives you a sense of how large the or- the organization was.

But we, we like our team. You know, we never, we never look to grow to the, to the, to the numbers of the old Highlands, you know. And, you know, we wanna be held accountable for the outcomes, right? That our students are getting jobs. They're, they're getting jobs at family sustainable wages. They're completing their course of study.

They're, they're, they are, you know, matriculating into higher ed if that's what they would, they wanna do. So, you know, we wanna be held accountable for outcomes, not simply, you know, inputs. 

Jeff Holden: And only not even two years into this process, it's difficult to say We're accomplishing that to the fullest extent.

However, getting those 18 [00:24:00] strikes taken care of is Herculean- 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah ... 

Jeff Holden: in such a short period of time. 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah, 

Jeff Holden: I- And I think a demonstration of commitment and intent. 

Jonathan Raymond: I would say, you know, we're-- So we're, we're a year and one month in- Okay ... you know, to those efforts. We're in our second year. Our academic year just started.

But yeah, we've had a lot of folks, I think, validate. We had the revocation of our charter overturned at the Sacramento County Office of Education. We ha- we had WASC, which is the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. They gave us a, a six-year accreditation, and that really speaks to the work that's happening in our schools and in our classrooms, and as well as what our plans were.

And now, of course, you know, the recent dec- you know, validation by the state auditor, who again, right, did the audit and now says we have fully implemented all 18 of their recommendations. So, you know, and validated by the numbers, right? We start the year with 900 students a year ago, and today we're over 22, with more wanting to come every day.

I [00:25:00] jokingly say on social media quite regularly that I couldn't find a parking spot when I came back to the h- the home office. There's so many students, you know, coming to school, w- you know, which is great. It's really nice to see. I think our students are feeling more comfortable. You know, they're relaxed.

They're feeling secure, and, you know, they... and, you know, they wanna get ahead, and they wanna succeed, and Highlands is a very important place for them. 

Jeff Holden: Where do you see the, the, the flow of students In terms of geography, is, is, is there opportunity now for more campuses to serve, or are more coming in on a virtual basis?

Are they coming in looking for the actual classroom experience? What does that demand look like? 

Jonathan Raymond: It's all that, all that, Jeff. All of it, okay. You know, we, we ha- we have campuses as far down as Florin Road in South Sacramento- Mm-hmm ... up to Franklin Boulevard. We're on Howe Avenue, which is right on- Very central

yes, between Fair Oaks as [00:26:00] well as Route 80, so, you know, right in that 80/50 corridor. We go up to College Oaks, which is right adjacent to the campus of American River College. We're on Marconi Boulevard, which is a real busy area for us, and we're also up in Hillsdale, you know, which is up- Oh ... up right off of Madison.

Yeah, so it's-- I think the demand, we have students who, who wanna come in person. It's really hard to learn English and take ESL virtually. And we have also students who are-- wanna have that non-classroom base. They wanna have that independent study piece. So offering both is important to meet the needs of our students.

You know, we could open more, more locations, but again, we wanna keep ourselves relatively tight so we can offer the-- all those wraparound support services that are, are so important. The old model of a classroom here or there, you know, just, just doesn't work for us anymore. We want to be able to have the continuity- Mm-hmm[00:27:00] 

to be able to offer more classes and more courses. 

Jeff Holden: Before we continue the conversation, let's take a break to hear from the people who make this program possible. 

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It's a partner in your purpose. [00:30:00] Explore your options today at westernhealth.com. Western Health Advantage, healthcare with heart, designed for those who give back. So this, this is where it gets fun. This is the opportunity to dream a little bit, which you didn't come here without a vision. If there were a blank check, somebody says, "I, I, I wanna fund this fully What would it look like?

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah, honestly, Jeff, I didn't come with a vision, right? I, I, I- 

Jeff Holden: Seriously? 

Jonathan Raymond: I came-- I, I think I came with a mission of like, you know, let's save the school, right? The, you know, and my wife reminds me most days, she's like, "Go out and fight to save a school." So, you know, that's been a lot on- Yes ... on year one. But as I think forward and as I think about, for instance, the, the policy changes that, that really need to be made in California to, I think, I think better serve adults that are in this space, you know, that mean, mean that comes a, a little bit later.

But what I have learned is that we need to maximize flexibility. [00:31:00] You know, our adult students really struggle to be in class four to six hours a day. It just, it doesn't work for them like a traditional high school student who- Right ... by the way, has compulsory education, right? Our students, our adults, you know, are choosing to, to come back to get their education.

Yeah, it's a elective process. That's right, and they have a lot of responsibilities. As I said, 70% are parents. Mm-hmm. They're caregivers, they're guardians. They work one, two, sometimes three jobs. Our students come to class at the end of, of working, and they're exhausted. You know, you can see it. Yet somehow they persist.

So I think having more flexible modalities, right? The ability for s- our students, if they wanna come in person, you know, they can come in person for, you know, two to three hours a day. You know, learn English, take a class. I think we need to have more opportunities for them to learn in that non-classroom-based setting.

So whether that's asynchronous, synchronous, you know, we make all of our lessons available. I was just remembering a, a podcast that I did a, a [00:32:00] year or plus ago with a guy who started an organization called The New Classroom Project, and it was a-- i- in essence, he realized that if he recorded his lessons every day, five, 10 minutes, he could give them to his students.

They could learn and use them on their own, and then he could also, instead of sitting up in front of the classroom lecturing, he could go around and he could work with students individually or in small groups based upon this small lesson. So our students need more of that. They need to be able to access the lessons, you know, when they want, how they want, you know, whether it's on the weekend, in the evening, early in the morning, you know, during a lunch break from work.

They-- we need to be much more flexible, and we need to be more nimble. And I think we also need to be more understanding when it comes to, you know, who should our teachers be? You know, do they have a K-12 credential, even though because they're, th- they're teaching algebra, but they're teaching to adults in, in, in multiple languages?

Or are we looking at using, [00:33:00] using teachers who understand how to, how to educate adults, have adult ed credentials, and also potential work experience? So, you know, we need a lot more flexibility, and I, I think we should be looking at outcomes much more than, say, the traditional four-year high school graduation rate, or whether a student who is, you know, 55ish, you know, should take the high school ninth grade physical education exam.

You know- 

Jeff Holden: Wait, seriously? 

Jonathan Raymond: Seriously. Seriously. Yeah, I'd, I'd like to challenge the state superintendent and, and the, the state board chair to, you know, come on out and- Right ... you know, take the, take the ninth grade PE test with us and, you know, tell me what the relevancy is. You know, what data are you gonna g- are you gonna get from that?

Which I, I, I would think if we have an assessment, we're, we're using that data for something. But it's just one of those compliance requirements that just doesn't make a l- a lot of sense. So I would, I would say, you know, if I'm gonna dream big, you know, we're g- we're gonna have a school that looks like a lot of-- a lot like a school that I visited in Washington, D.C.,

an adult charter [00:34:00] school, Carlos Rosario. Very nimble, very flexible. Their funding isn't tied to a student sitting in a seat, but it's tied more to outcomes. You know, what are they doing in terms of completion, graduation, English language proficiency? Are they getting jobs? At what wages? They have a very more multiple-looking measures of accountability and funding as well as credentialing, just, you know, based upon our traditional model, you know, which is based upon average daily attendance.

I, I think it's, I think it's lazy policymaking. You know, some people may not like that I use that phrase, but it's, it's easier than, than trying to really figure out, you know, how do we meet the needs of these students? And again, I would argue, California, 4.3 million adults without a high school diploma.

What are we doing about it? 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Raymond: There's not many schools- 

Jeff Holden: Well, I think that clearly- ... regards- ... speaks to the need for change- 

Jonathan Raymond: That's right ... which is 

Jeff Holden: so difficult, especially in a very structured, regimented, gigantically large [00:35:00] system. 

Jonathan Raymond: Right. 

Jeff Holden: And a teacher's union as well. 

Jonathan Raymond: Well, yeah, you know, and it's-- I mean, we get, we get a little bit of that, but, but our funding's totally different than- Mm-hmm

than, you know, the traditional. You know, we're not taking money from, from the local school district. 

Jeff Holden: If we go and look into the system itself, and, and you see this from a couple different perspectives, 'cause when you were here prior, you know, '09 to '14, you got to see the impact of students age related to high school where they're, they're what, 12 to, to 18, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, whatever that, that age range is, to today where you're looking at it from a spectrum of 22 plus.

You've seen a lot of faces. You've seen a lot of people succeed through each of these programs. Give us an example of somebody, a, a human impact as opposed to a stat or a data, of what you've seen so far in the last 13 months. 

Jonathan Raymond: [00:36:00] You know, I think it's the students. What I like to see is, particularly for our students, are, you know, the, the students that just ref- refuse to quit, and it, it takes them five or six years to sometimes get through.

A student that I, I recently did a, a show on Capital Public Radio with had been falling through the system, had, had been in the criminal justice system, and at the age of, you know, 40 comes out and wants to get a high school diploma. She's, she just graduated from Sac State, and she's in a, in a master's program.

That's awesome. We had another student in her, in her 70s who came and spoke at- ... uh, the Sacramento County Office of Education appeal. But somehow 

Jeff Holden: she did pass that high school requirement of physical fitness? 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah, well, you know, you know, you can, you, you can sign a waiver to that. Interestingly, a lot of our students, they wanna do it.

They're, they're, th- they're not quitters. And this w- and this one student said, "Look, I'm in my, I'm in my 70s, and, and I'm finally gonna get my high [00:37:00] school diploma. It's really important to my family. You know, don't take that away from me." So these are, you know, the students we're fighting for, and I remind our staff, and I remind others, I said, "Look, we have this unbelievable special power, you know, they, that we work for these students."

You know, they are, they energize us. You know, as I, I said to them on graduation day, "You are the sunshine o- of our life." And when you have that kind of force and power, you know, behind you, you know, the, to use the Bette Midler wind, the wind underneath our wings, there's nobody that's gonna stop us, Jeff. No local school district, no state, no county, I mean, nobody.

I mean, we're, we're kind of invincible, and, you know, we're gonna succeed, and we're gonna prevail, and we'll find a way, whether it's plan A, B, C, or D, you know? We're, we're gonna do it. So, you know, back to your earlier question, uh, about- And, 

Jeff Holden: and just a second there ... who was not 

Jonathan Raymond: there. 

Jeff Holden: Okay. The tenac- no, the tenacity of the student- 

Jonathan Raymond: Right

Jeff Holden: is the persistence that you're exhibiting right now, which I, I, I love hearing. 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Holden: Because you're aligned With the same goals [00:38:00] and objectives, ideals, we aren't stopping. It may take me two, three, four, five, six years to get through. 

Jonathan Raymond: Right. 

Jeff Holden: You're here. It may take you two, three, four, five, six years to get this- 

Jonathan Raymond: Right

Jeff Holden: where you want it. 

Jonathan Raymond: That's right. Yeah. But- And, uh, and I think you said a little surprised that I, uh, you know, I didn't, quote, "Have a vision." You know, I, I had some ideas, but the vision emerges for you, right? It, it's gotta come from the inside, and... But having been now in the community for-- back in the community for a year, you know, working with these students, working with the staff, getting to know them, getting to know our community partners, you know, I've realized that, yeah, I mean, you know, H- yes, Highlands has to succeed, and yes, we have to evolve.

My immediate predecessor said, "Listen, this first year, you know, don't even try to innovate, you know. You know, just it's all about compliance." Well, y- yes, and right? Yes, it was about compliance, and that's largely how we were able to fully implement all of the auditor's recommendations. But it was about innovating.

As I said, we started with 900 students. You know, we, we, w- we put a new [00:39:00] education plan over the winter break. We launched in early January, hoping to create a foundations program for our students that didn't speak any, any English. So it was, uh, ESL, foundational math, foundational literacy, and English for work and life.

You know, how do you participate in your child's student-parent teacher conference? How do you, how do you dispute a parking ticket, right? How do you fill a prescription or make a doctor's appointment? So real practical English. And we, we hoped to have 200 students in that. By the end of the year, you know, we had close to 900 students in that program alone, you know, from 12 classes to almost 30 classes.

And so the need to innovate, the need to keep trying to, to recreate, to, to use the flexibilities that a, a charter school has. You know, we-- I thought the curriculum wasn't adequate enough for us, so we pushed the start of school back 10 days. We adopted a new curriculum. We put in professional learning. We changed our bell schedule to [00:40:00] allow our teachers to have flexibility to work and learn together and have an early release on Friday.

You know, we did that in a matter of a, of a few weeks. You could never do that in a traditional p- you know, public school system. It w- it would take you, you know, a g- a good year plus to adopt a new curriculum. You could never change a b- a bell schedule without negotiating it with the collective bargaining units.

And, and at the end of the day, it'd probably end up being, you know, uh, once a month for 20 minutes, and it would be voluntary. So, you know, it's, it's not a knock, it just is. But, you know, charters were created, and, you know, one of my great mentors, the late Gary Hart, Senator Gary Hart here from- Mm-hmm

California, was the godfather of charter law in California, and it was always viewed as a place to be innovative, a place to try things so that they could be-- they could find their way into the larger public system. 

Jeff Holden: Today, as you look at the, the operation And you see some of this mission fulfillment and the, call it the negativity of it starting [00:41:00] to settle.

It, it, it's behind you. You're, you're seeing progress. It's, it's new growth. It's that innovative process that you've implemented. What's the greatest need? 

Jonathan Raymond: Without question, so many students wanna learn English, right? We, so we, we need to find pathways for them to be able to, to, to learn English, and then to matriculate into our tr- into our high school, you know, curriculum program to access, fully access the curriculum, or a career or technical education class and then, and then get a job.

But clearly there's a need for, you know, uh, I like to say an English diploma. You know, you can learn and master English and, and you ought, you ought to be rewarded for that, and then encouraged and incentivized to continue on with your, with your growth and your learning. 

Jeff Holden: People are getting an understanding of who Jonathan Raymond is at this point through the conversation 'cause there's a little been bits and pieces-

of, of the personality coming through. And this is a point where we shift a little bit and go beyond the mission. You know, just, just some, some quick [00:42:00] questions- 

Jonathan Raymond: Sure. Shoot 

Jeff Holden: away, Jeff ... for you- 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah ... 

Jeff Holden: to give people a little more of, of the personal side- 

Jonathan Raymond: Right ... 

Jeff Holden: of, of, of- 

Jonathan Raymond: Right. And, and- ... who 

Jeff Holden: you are ... 

Jonathan Raymond: and full disclaimer, I haven't seen these in advance.

Jeff Holden: No. So, you know. I, I don't share them with anybody in 

Jonathan Raymond: advance. That's great. All right. Away we go. 

Jeff Holden: But there's nothing that difficult. I'm not gonna get so heavy on you that you have to spend a minute to think about it. All right. So early bird or night owl? 

Jonathan Raymond: Oh, I'm an early birder way, way... My wife's the, the night owl.

Jeff Holden: Podcast music or silence on a long drive? 

Jonathan Raymond: I'm a walk-up, you know, music guy, so I l- I love that, you know, s- you know, baseball players have a walk-up song. You know, my walk-up song would be probably from, you know, "Green Grass and High Times" forever. 

Jeff Holden: Favorite city you visited? 

Jonathan Raymond: You know, it's tough. I love Paris, but I was just recently in, in Dubrovnik.

It's a spectacular, you know, preserved, you know, medieval place that's f- that is vibrant today. 

Jeff Holden: How about your favorite movie? 

Jonathan Raymond: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, with a close second, The Sting. 

Jeff Holden: Whoa. [00:43:00] 

Jonathan Raymond: Right? 

Jeff Holden: Country and western to big city. 

Jonathan Raymond: Well, you know, I, I just, I mean, The Sting is just, it's, it's an all-time classic.

Yeah. And I, you know, I ha- I was fortunate enough to actually meet Robert Redford, you know, who, who gave me permission to call him Bob. And if I could meet a- anyone for lunch, it'd be Paul Newman. 

Jeff Holden: Very cool. Very cool. One thing people would be surprised to learn about you. 

Jonathan Raymond: That I was born two and a half weeks late, and, you know, for most of my life, I ran about, you know, I ran late to everything I did.

Well- It drove my mother crazy. 

Jeff Holden: Compliments to you, you were 15 minutes early for this, you know, this interview. 

Jonathan Raymond: Well, you know, let's just, let's just chalk it up to some, some sort of old age wisdom. 

Jeff Holden: And I'm gonna add one that I learned when we were having a conversation prior to on the discovery call. You were a competitive kayaker, whitewater kayaker.

Jonathan Raymond: Whitewater kayaking, yep, I was really passionate about it. There's, um, rivers have a special sort of, sort of soulfulness to them. 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Raymond: So I learned a lot about myself and others through kayaking. 

Jeff Holden: What's a small [00:44:00] win for you that makes a day? 

Jonathan Raymond: You know, when you see a student light up, when you, when you walk into the classroom, the great respect they have for their teachers and, you know, how proud they are to be, to be learning.

Little side story, it gets to you a proud moment, but we, we offered, we started offering art and music classes to our students. Had, had never been done at Highlands before. And we, we had a, a little felting project for our students, and not really knowing that it was actually the male students who were so interested.

Uh, we had one student who, he just, he didn't wanna go home. He just kept felting and felting and felting, and he loved flowers. In fact, I love sunflowers. He was felting sunflowers, and I actually showed him, you know, the, the tattoo on my forearm of a sunflower, and he shook his head, "No, no, no." He said, "That sunflower, that sunflower."

And he pointed to the ones that he had been felting. So you see the, the unbelievable passion, and we can't even a- understand some of the things that our students have, have gone [00:45:00] through, you know, coming from U- Ukraine, coming from Afghanistan. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah, 

Jonathan Raymond: war-torn 

Jeff Holden: cities 

Jonathan Raymond: and countries that we- So, that's right.

Yeah ... didn't have a- So when you, when you see them coming and showing up, you know, early in the morning, late, late at night, when you know they're, you know, they're in... Some of our students are in class till 10 at night. And you know they've worked all day long, and they're parents, and they have other responsibilities.

That, that just gets me really jazzed. 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. If you weren't doing this What would you be doing? 

Jonathan Raymond: You know, uh, people say if, you know, in your next life, you know, I'd be a Br- I'd, I'd be a Broadway dancer, Jeff. 

Jeff Holden: In a million years, I never would've guessed that. 

Jonathan Raymond: You know- 

Jeff Holden: You have a law degree. I thought maybe he's gonna be an attorney or he'd be doing some sort of litigation.

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah. You know, I mean, Fred Astaire, you know, some of those fantastic... Gene Kelly, you know, just unbelievable. I'd, I'd like to be a Broadway dancer. 

Jeff Holden: I'm gonna introduce you to Kira from the Sacramento Ballet, who we just had in here. We'll have to- 

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah, I love it. I, you know, I took ballet in college ... make a collaborative connection.

I, I took ballet in college [00:46:00] as a way to satisfy a, an, a fine arts credit, and I, I ended up continuing on. It was, it was really exciting, so. But we won't ha- we won't get into that now. 

Jeff Holden: I, I love it. That's a conversation for another day, right? Yes, 

Jonathan Raymond: sir. 

Jeff Holden: What's the best way for people interested in learning more about the school, for application, for us to share the way to learn more about it?

Jonathan Raymond: Yeah. So they can go to our website, which is www.hccts, again, hccts.org, and they can learn all about Highlands there. They can even register. They can find out, they can follow us on s- on, uh, on social media as that's a great first start. 

Jeff Holden: And I will have that in the show notes too, so it's easy access. I mean- Yes

you just click and they don't have to worry- Thank you, Jeff ... about trying to pull over and take notes- Yeah ... if they're driving- Yeah ... as they're listening to this. It's never too late. You said that- 

Jonathan Raymond: It's 

Jeff Holden: never too late ... somewhere in the conversation. 

Jonathan Raymond: Right. 

Jeff Holden: And, and I love that you have a spectrum. [00:47:00] How you lit up when you're talking about the students who, just mentally you hear student and you think young.

But, but you're talking average ages in the 40s and, and students as old as 70 plus who are going through the programs that the school offers, which is amazing because, to your point, they become invisible. People give up on them. The interesting thing is they never gave up on themselves, and they just keep going.

And back to that persistence of desire and, and just wanting to accomplish it for whatever their, their personal reasons are. And what you and the team of educators, the, the administrative side, because this is not easy in any way, shape, or form with all the people that are engaged to make it happen, to come back and reinvigorate with what could be seen as why, and now have it double in its first year in attendance with a bright future in front of it as you look to [00:48:00] go into Sutter County, and you know the demand is here already in the Sacramento- Yes

or Greater Sacramento region. Kudos to you. Kudos to you. Thank you to you, to the team, to the administrator, to the, the teachers who are there today knowing what it was gonna take, and it wasn't gonna be easy. So we appreciate what you're doing, and we really appreciate how you're helping those who have found themselves in a situation that without language could be so, so difficult.

Jonathan Raymond: You know, it's an honor and a privilege to be back here, you know, serving the community. We have a great team. I appreciate you giving them a shout-out. You know, we make it possible for our students to... Because, you know, sometimes, you know, they're, they're not always feeling so successful. Right. And so our, our team knows when to give them a little boost and, and oftentimes a hug, you know?

H- you know, hugs are, hugs are good at H- at, at Highlands. They're okay. You know, you, you said why, and I, and I say, I steal a line from my beloved 2004 Red [00:49:00] Sox, "Why not us?" Right? And so we're scrappy, just like they were, you know. Um, we believe in ourselves wh- when others don't, and, you know, I feel bad for those that stand in our way.

Jeff Holden: Love it. I absolutely love it. Jonathan, thank you so 

Jonathan Raymond: much. You're welcome, Jeff. Thanks for having me on the show. I really appreciate you. Let's make something better. Amen. 

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