Fairytale Town: Where Imagination Still Gets to Run Free

Kevin Smith-Fagan: [00:00:00] Fairytale Town is a place where there still aren't any screens and no one is dictating the story to you. It's incumbent upon you as the child to be the narrator. You are the maker of the story, and that's what pretend is, and that's what we believe in, right? The mission is promote imagination, creativity, and education of children

Jeff Holden: Welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast Network. Our purpose and passion are simple: to highlight the incredible nonprofits that make our communities stronger. Each episode is a chance for these organizations to tell their story in their words, sharing not just what they do, but why it matters to the people they serve, to their supporters, and to all of us who believe in the power of community.

Through podcasting, [00:01:00] we hope to amplify their voices, inspire connection, and give them one more tool to impact the hearts of donors, partners, and neighbors alike. This work is made possible through the generous support of our incredible partners. Cap Trust, offering fiduciary advice for endowments and foundations.

Western Health Advantage, a local not-for-profit health plan that believes healthcare is more than coverage. It's about caring. Core, executive leadership and comprehensive support services. They work in it so you can work on it. And Five Star Bank, a local trusted advisor to community nonprofits for over 25 years.

If you grew up in Sacramento, there's a pretty good chance Fairytale Town is part of your childhood. Maybe you climbed through the Crooked Mile, slid down the Old Woman's Shoe, celebrated a birthday there, or today you're bringing your own kids or even [00:02:00] grandkids back to experience it. But here's what I learned in this conversation.

Fairytale Town is so much more than the place many of us remember. For more than 65 years, this Sacramento institution has been creating a space where kids can do something that's becoming increasingly rare: put down the screens, use their imagination, explore, take a few risks, solve problems, interact with other kids, and simply play.

And behind those familiar gates is an organization doing far more than most people realize. There are camps, theater programs, live animals, classroom visits, homeschool programs, workforce development opportunities, and even a second location, the Sacramento Adventure Playground, where kids are literally encouraged to build, create, and figure things out for themselves.

My guest is Kevin Smith-Theigen, executive director of Fairytale Town. And what struck me most about our conversation is how intentional all of this really is. The mission isn't [00:03:00] simply to entertain children. It's to foster imagination, creativity, and education, and in the process, help kids develop confidence, independence, empathy, and some of the very skills they'll carry with them for the rest of their lives.

Kevin Smith-Fagan, welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast Network. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Thank you so much for welcoming me. Really glad to be here. 

Jeff Holden: And it's taken us a little while to make this happen. I'm pleased we finally have. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Well, it's a privilege to be invited, and I'm looking forward to spending some time together. 

Jeff Holden: All right, I've gotta tell this story.

This is unscripted, and, but you're gonna remember it. I was at our bank. We, we share a mutual bank, and they, they also happen to be, you know, a partner of ours. It's Five Star Bank. And I'm making a deposit, doing withdrawal. I don't know what it was that I was doing there, and I see this guy. I don't even look to see who the guy is 'cause he's carrying these bags side by side, one in each arm, that are, [00:04:00] are clearly heavy.

And I'm looking, and I realize they're coins. The bags are coins. I, I can't help but lau- I look up, and it's you. And I'm kind of awestruck or whatever it was. I think, "What are you doing?" 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. And- No, I remember it well. It's, the Wishing Well is a popular stop for kids and families at Fairytale Town, and so they drop a penny or a nickel or something, and you know it winds around and around and around, and it eventually works its way into the accounting stream and needs to be taken to the bank.

So there I was, lugging those heavy coin bags. How often do you do that? The coin bags? Oh, maybe every other month. 

Jeff Holden: Okay. That's still, as much as I saw in those bags, that's a fairly substantial amount of coinage. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, yeah. 

Jeff Holden: No doubt. Probably not a lot of money, but coinage, yes. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. It, on a per pound basis, coins is beating paper hands down.

Jeff Holden: And I [00:05:00] should have asked that question in the funding part of the conversation, but I couldn't, I couldn't resist. It was, it was just a fun, you know, coincidental meeting, right? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. There are certain, oh, I don't know, unanticipated or little side tasks to the job that you would not have figured, I did not figure in advance, and lugging the Wishing Well coins to the bank is, turns out to be one of those things.

Jeff Holden: I love it. The organization is not new to town by any means, and I don't know if many of our listeners are going, "Oh, I know how old it is." Would you have guessed that it was established or created in 1959? 1959, which is amazing to think that we have what is maybe an, an entertainment venue of sorts, you know, just, just sitting right in the heart of the city for so many generations, 67 years.

And- Man, has it [00:06:00] evolved, I'm sure. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Jeff, I can't tell you, you know, on the subject of its longevity, uh, and Humpty's birthday, by the way, is August 29th, 1959. That was the opening day, and so every time that rolls around, it's cause for celebration. But I can't tell you how many times, I mean couple times a week someone will say, "Oh, you work at Fairytale Town?

I had my fourth birthday there. I had my third birthday there," or my fifth or something. Yes, as the decades have gone by, fresh generations have come and grown up, and then they bring their children and on to grandchildren, and I fi- actually find it really heartwarming because a child's life has changed so much from being a five-year-old in 1959 or 1969 or 1979 to today.

It's so much more of a digital world, and kids, I think, don't have the freedom that they [00:07:00] once had to explore and play outside or unbooked hours in their days and weekend days. I mean, it just seems like- 

Jeff Holden: Non-screen time? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And for me, it's very heartwarming to see a little kid climb in the Cinderella carriage and have a blast pretending, same as that child did in the 1950s, '60s, and so on.

Like, it's good to know that inside, kids are still kids, and that there are some things that haven't changed about the innocence of childhood. 

Jeff Holden: I am so happy to hear you that, because I think we hear you say that because I... And we think, "What's happening? What's happening to our kids?" You know, is, is it all screen?

Is it all virtual? What happens 10 years from now? And to, to know that, that, you know, that innocent, tactile experience 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: still exists. Yeah, yeah. I, I would argue that Fairytale Town is [00:08:00] more important today even than it was in its early years, because I think kids have lost some of their outdoor playtime or unsupervised time, just the sense of discovery and navigating the world, even your own little neighborhood.

I read a stat someplace that something like a generation ago, 85% of kids got themselves to school, and now it's 15%. 

Jeff Holden: Oh, it has to be small percentage. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, right? I mean, it's just... I'm a case in point. I mean, I walked to kindergarten. Mm-hmm. When I was a kid, that was, everybody did. 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And now nobody does.

Jeff Holden: Right. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: You know, so then you ask yourself by extension, "Well, so what?" And I think it is true that learning to make your way, having to figure things out a little bit, having to problem solve, having to interact with your environment and make decisions and make [00:09:00] mistakes, honestly, and learn from those mistakes, I think a lot of that's not there anymore for kids.

Mm-hmm. And at Fairytale Town, where kids get, you know, I will affectionately say off leash a little bit, right? The parents know That it is a safe space. It's protected by fencing all the way around. There's a single entrance that's monitored. There's ample staff. I think that parents do feel comfortable letting their kids run a little bit and go and explore and find out for themselves and challenge themselves, like work up the nerve to go on the shoe slide or a corkscrew slide like the old owl slide.

Those things are important in child development. They're really important in child development, and Fairytale Town is a place where there still aren't any screens, and no one is dictating the story to you. It's incumbent upon you as the child to be the narrator. You are the maker of [00:10:00] the story, and that's what pretend is, and that's what we believe in, right?

The mission is imagination, promote imagination, creativity, and education of children. That's what we do. 

Jeff Holden: That is, that was a great description because we think about that, and I think maybe the one we left out is that there's conflict resolution in all that too, 'cause maybe somebody's in front of you and you wanna get on and you have to wait and you have to learn to wait, and maybe if you don't, you have a problem and - 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, no

Jeff Holden: and you have to deal with it- 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Absolutely ... 

Jeff Holden: as the kid. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Right, and learning to, um, the, the social side of it- Yes ... is, is very real, and so that's part of it. So circling all the way back, I think s- Fairytale Town is serving a really, really important child development th- I think for kids, Fairytale Town is just fun.

They get to come to Fairytale Town, they run around, they see beautiful gardens, they get to see these cool sculptures, and you're allowed to climb on them, and there are [00:11:00] slides, and, you know, on a weekend day, you can go see a, a stage show or a puppet show. I think for the parents, it's all of those things, but it's also a safe space- 

Darrell Teat: Mm-hmm

Kevin Smith-Fagan: where they know they're, they can have this experience. You see lots of young parents who have come together or set up, you know, it's like a little playdate, and they've got the strollers, but the kids have run off, and they know so long as they have them in sight, that that's gonna work. And there's a, I think there is a comfort level that there wouldn't be perhaps in a neighborhood park or some- 

Jeff Holden: Any 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: amusements

space that's not as protected or private. And then for us, Fairytale Town is all of those things, but it's also a child development center. Mm-hmm. Like I said, the mission is actually not to amuse children. It is to foster their imagination and to inspire their creativity and to educate. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. Let's take that s- topic right there just a little bit further because superficially, yes, it, it is a theme park of sorts.

Certainly [00:12:00] not unlike the exaggerated theme parks of today where it's, it's everything's digital and electronic and motorized in some way, shape, or form. But it is that place And, and you've got so much more that takes place. There's programs that take place. There's, there's theater that's happening. There, there's events that are happening.

T-talk about h-how it's grown from just its original orientation of a place you go to and you play with it and then you leave and it's all, that's it, like a, like a park. But today it's so much more. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. The calendar is s-so packed. I mean, it's fantastic. There's always something going on, and so you will, in addition to just being open every day for families to bring their kids and have an enjoyable, healthy child wellness outing, there is story time.

There are up-close introductions to live animals. We have a, a barnyard of live animals. If there are any viewers and listeners who remember [00:13:00] Fairytale Town from their childhood, it's... No, it's not the same tortoise, but in fact, there is still a live tortoise at Fairytale Town, and Louie's 25 years old.

There are live parrots and live goats and sheep, and we've got a live cow and horse and more. Those things, lots of kids who live in urban environments, it's their first exposure to those. Mm-hmm. So we've got this family of live barnyard animals. They actually go out and do classroom visits. I think one of the things that would surprise people about Fairytale Town is knowing that we have this organized program.

This is a l-lot, too. We're talking about over 125 classroom visits- 

Jeff Holden: A 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: year? ... a year. 

Jeff Holden: Wow. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Where that got lined up with a teacher and it matches with the curriculum that the class is covering, and the kids get an educational presentation featuring a live animal. It could be bees. It could be-- We have reptiles.

We have parrots, as I mentioned. We got-- [00:14:00] We-- It's quite a production. There are s- camps all summer long and also in spring and fall, so there's organized program activities. There are theater shows on the weekend. There are puppet shows. There are-- There's a lot of activity at Fairytale Town beyond just rolling the gate open Every morning 

Jeff Holden: And I'm sure that was, you know, over time one started- Right

that was great. The next one started, that was great. The next one started, that was great. And before you know it, you've got a full calendar and a full day every single day besides just opening the gates. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, our staff is really remarkable, just incredible dedication that they show both on the programmatic side, the education and programs team, but also the grounds and facilities.

Like the grounds guys take a great deal of pride. Fairytale Town opens pristine every morning. It has been all the [00:15:00] walkways and grass has been blown, all the whatever, like leaves that may have fallen, that stuff is all gone. Like it is pristine every morning. B- And they start at 7:00 and they work their tails off to make sure that it is perfect for kids when they show up.

Yeah, it's inspiring. It's pretty neat. Is there any particular program or programs that you see a greatest demand on? Summer camps is crazy. Parents who have children that age- Well, 

Jeff Holden: and Kevin, I'm sure you can leave them there for a while and not have to worry 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. I mean, the summer camp program is really strong.

One of the things that we're seeing that is growing is demand for homeschool programming, because more and more families are choosing to homeschool, and the hands of the parents basically to find some educational outlets in the community. The charter school typically will say, "Here's the approved vendors list of places that you can go- Mm-hmm

that [00:16:00] we support." And so I think this coming school year, we're gonna have something like 22 homeschool, you know, education sessions, and they're gonna fill up because a key component, it turns out, of homeschooling is n- actually not just being at home all the time. 

Jeff Holden: I didn't realize that. Yeah, that's-- A- and nor did I think that you would have the ability to have Fairytale Town be one of the components of the homeschooling process, which is awesome because that's just another element to fill up your busy schedule, right?

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. Yes, it is, and it's a good thing because it's what, to your point about demand- 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: it's about meeting the needs of the community. 

Jeff Holden: And it gives those kids that interaction too, 'cause if you're at home all the time anyhow, you're not gonna have any social interaction. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, that's- Which 

Jeff Holden: is, is critical

Kevin Smith-Fagan: and s- many of those homeschool groups, right, they organize themselves into meetups so that the children do get their social time together- Mm-hmm ... and they can make friends, and I think the same is true for the parents. I think [00:17:00] it can be isolating to be a homeschool educator and be doing a good job teaching your kids at home every day, but who do you talk to?

Who do you get- Right. Right ... to spend time with? 

Jeff Holden: Kevin, you came from public television. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: I did. 

Jeff Holden: Okay. W- which means you had a lot of community contact and wonderful and, and appropriate as it should be into Fairytale Town now seven years-ish? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, this is my seventh year at Fairytale 

Jeff Holden: Town. Okay So you have all these contacts, this depth of, of contact in the community.

Who are the people that you work with with Fairytale Town? 'Cause just superficially I've seen so many or have heard people say, but are, are there some core collaborators? You know, all our nonprofits today recognize-- I take that back. The majority of nonprofits today recognize the need for collaboration in so many different ways.

What's it look like for you? So 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: there-- This is a chance for me to introduce one of the programs that I think might surprise people who know and love Fairytale Town, may [00:18:00] not have any idea at all that we operate a second location, the Sacramento Adventure Playground- 

Jeff Holden: Perfect ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: which is located, uh, like along the Franklin Boulevard corridor in South Sacramento.

So it's in an area of high need, and it is a free after-school play program for kids who basically mostly are ages six to 15. And as I mentioned, it's free after-school drop-off. We don't allow parents to interact in the play There's a parent waiting room. Waiting room is a little bit complimentary. It's just some seats in an outdoor corner of the Adventure Playground, which is, oh, well, how to describe...

The playground is this quirky, wonderful thing that at first glance kind of looks like a junkyard, because what we want is for kids to come and exercise their creative muscle. We will- Yeah, 

Jeff Holden: use their imagination. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. We're- we won't tell [00:19:00] you what to make, but we will help you make it and furnish the tools.

So there's hammers and nails and saws and drills, and if you decide you wanna build a fort, there's a pile of wood over there, and here's a spot where you should do that. And we will teach you how the tools work, but then it's up to you to build your own fort. You know? If you wanna paint it, I don't know, go get the paint.

It's over there. It turns out that, you know, the kids almost... Feral is probably not a complimentary word. But it is that outdoor, unsupervised play that many people remember from their own childhoods- Childhood, right ... when the rules were basically like you got home from school, and you just had to be home by dinner, or you had to be home by nightfall or something.

Um- And 

Jeff Holden: you did go out and build a fort. You- And it was like either in the, in the... If you had woods by your house, it was there, or if it was a tree somewhere, you built it in a tree, and it was definitely not OSHA compliant. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. 

Jeff Holden: And probably one of the most unsafe things a kid could be playing in, but you had a [00:20:00] ball.

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, and y- and you were learning about the world out there. And so at the Adventure Playground, right, kids come over. Again, there are no screens. They're not allowed to look at their phones. Their parents are welcome to stay, but they're off in a corner because they're gonna hover. And we're like, "No, no, no, no, no.

That is not what the Adventure Playground is here to do." The Adventure Playground is for your kid to go out on her own a little bit, his own a little bit, decide what they wanna do, and figure out how to do it As I say, it i- it visually is the antithesis of Fairytale Town. I described how basically perfect and beautiful everything has to be at Fairytale Town, and then over at the Adventure Playground, it really does look, by the end of the day, like, looks like it got hit by a tornado.

Jeff Holden: Yeah. What, what is that? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: But it's fantastic, and it gets back to finally answering your question, which was about community partners. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah, and collaborators, yeah. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. We're partnered, this is at the Maple Community Center, with La Familia, which is [00:21:00] very comprehensive social services- Mm-hmm ... community services organization that serves that part of Sacramento.

So La Familia is one of our key community partners. Over at Fairytale Town, we have a wonderful partnership with NorCal Arts. In terms of, like, nonprofit synergy, it was such a great match because they have drama programs, talented young kids, and they're writing and staging shows, and they need audiences.

Mm-hmm. They need venues, and they need audiences. And we had venue and audiences every weekend. And so we worked out a deal that's, is actually going fantastic, where every weekend in the theater, virtually every weekend at the children's theater at Fairytale Town, there is a NorCal Arts show that families can enjoy.

And so it is an arts experience, not just for the kids, but also for the performers. 

Jeff Holden: And I was just gonna say, for the kids. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes, exactly. [00:22:00] So that's a- another one of our key partners. The Girl Scouts really like the Adventure Playground and Fairytale Town both, but the Adventure Playground lines up a lot with some of the, um, badge programs- Mm-hmm

that they have. So they'll organize troops to come over and achieve something on site at the Adventure Playground, and then they earn the badge. So the Girl Scouts is a, is another community partner worth mentioning. For older kids, we're partnered with a high school that sends kids out weekly to do workplace training.

There's, this is, uh, a high school called Cristo Rey, where kids go to school four days a week, and the fifth day they're in a, like an internship placement. So we've got four Cristo Rey kids this year. College kids, Sacramento State will have interns that come to Fairytale Town, and they'll, as part of their coursework, need to conceive and execute [00:23:00] some child development activities.

Mm-hmm. So these will be like child education majors. So we have university kids who we're partnered up, and the university actually is a really good friend, and, uh, we have a board member from Sacramento State. So lots of community connections. 

Jeff Holden: And, and I am a huge prophon- proponent of that Cristo Rey model, you know, the work study program It just engages kids at such an early age who would never get that experience, and you're doubling down on it because they're going into the environment of seeing all that it takes.

You know, you might think, "Well, this is kind of an amusement park. I'm used to Humpty Dumpty, and I see the characters, and that's all fun." Something has to take care of that stuff. There's, there's maintenance behind it. There's work behind it. There's an administrative part to all of it. And one of the things that, uh, we talked about in our conversation, our discovery conversation, was how you're also preparing some of these people who come to work for you, summer jobs or, or part-time jobs.[00:24:00] 

All of a sudden, you're preparing for workforce development for the community to come out of Fairytale Town into a career job. You know, they work through high school or college, and tell us about that. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Absolutely. It's very f- very gratifying to see, but there are kids... So the Cristo Rey kids, we'll start with there and then talk about even younger kids who sort of come through the Fairytale Town pipeline, but we've got a bunch of Cristo Rey kids who came and did their year or multiple years with Fairytale Town as their placement, and then the summer rolls around, and the summer camp staff is looking for some, uh, like introductory level camp staff, and it's like, "Hey, Jocelyn.

Hey, Joaquin. You guys interested in working this summer? This is what it pays." Perfect. And so then they get their first ti- they get their first job. Then the ones that go to college and are local might stay on, and this is very common. This is really common for us to have- 

Jeff Holden: I love to hear that ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: you know, high school seniors and college kids who are [00:25:00] working part-time at Fairytale Town while they go to school.

It's great for us because they know Fairytale Town. They're good, and it's great for them because, to your point, they're learning about what it means to work someplace, like kind of how workplaces operate- Mm-hmm ... and the different facets of the business. And it's like, "Oh, those people are the ones that do the marketing.

Oh, that's the one that does the accounting. Oh, I see. They're the ones that have to clean the bathrooms or make sure that the, you know, fix the air conditioning and so on." That, that to me is one of the 

Jeff Holden: most 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: gratifying 

Jeff Holden: experiences to hear the, that full 360. You know, I came as a kid, then I ended up working as an intern, then I ended up getting a job to get myself through high school or college.

Then I came back maybe to work for a year or two while I looked for the job or career that I really wanted to get myself in. And in some cases, I know you have people who are making their career there that started- Yes ... as the youth that came to the organization. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. We have a couple kids. In fact, the woman who serves as the [00:26:00] assistant director of Fairytale Town, the number two, who's now in her early 30s, started as a child at Fairytale.

She had her, a childhood birthday- Birthday party ... at Fairytale Town, and then she, you know, stayed involved, and we had a dr- drama program, I think, that she was engaged in, and then she became, like, a junior volunteer. So this is the, this is kind of the, the pathway is, right? You start as a kid who comes to Fairytale Town, then maybe you start to do some the summer camps, and then you get older.

Like, we have 11 and 12-year-olds, and they're transitioning out of being campers into being camp helpers. And then when they're a little older, when they're 13, 14, 15, they're in the, the Volunteens program, where they're, like, formally volunteering at Fairytale Town, and then they turn 16, and they're old enough to get hired, and many of them do get hired because they're really talented young people.

And, like, I just love seeing that so much because I'm watching them grow up But not, [00:27:00] they're growing up not just getting older, but they're developing the life skills. Mm-hmm. Like, and you'd see, like, "Wow, she's really, she's really bright. Look at that kid go." You know? And I remember she was 12, and now look, you know, she's 17, and she's running a great program at Fairytale Town.

And in Sammy's case, she ended up being a college intern. She got hired out of college full-time at Fairytale Town, and then she advanced to, uh, become a department manager. Now she's the assistant director. So she's like a little microcosm of that pipeline. 

Jeff Holden: Yep. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And it's, it's, it's very, very neat to see that kind of growth.

Jeff Holden: And I actually met her at another collaborative program that you were doing with the Metro Chamber with the Metro Edge group. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, there you go. 

Jeff Holden: And that's, you know, back full circle to that collaboration creating opportunity, creating jobs, just the things that I know as the listener, you're sitting here going, "I, I just thought it was a place to [00:28:00] take my kids.

I had no idea what was happening over the course of those 59 years or s- uh, 67 years since 1959." Maybe not quite Fairytales, but certainly valuable information is what we're going to take a break to do before we return to the conversation with Kevin Smith Fagan of Fairytale Town. Thanks to those who make our program possible.

James Beckwith: I'm James Beckwith, president and CEO of Five Star Bank. We're dedicated to supporting nonprofit organizations who advocate for the strength, resilience, and vitality of those they serve. When nonprofit organizations thrive, our community does too. By supporting the Nonprofit Podcast Network, Five Star Bank is amplifying the voices and meaningful impact of our nonprofit community.

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Darrell Teat: We are really excited to be part of the [00:29:00] family and contribute to the work that you all are doing. CXORE provides fractional and interim executive services along with comprehensive back office solutions that go into our client sites and do the work to give them the capacity they need in order to move through transitions, whether that's planned or unplanned, or companies also work with our accounting and finance back office solutions, human resources, technology, and administration.

The reason why our back office solutions add value is because we save them time and money, anywhere from 20 to 30% of what they would spend on that back office solution. We work in it so they can actually work on it. CXORE.com and contact me directly at D-T-E-A-T @CXORE.com. 

Jeff Holden: If you're interested in learning more about how CXORE may help your organization, visit CXORE.com 

Scott Thomas: Hello, this is Scott Thomas with [00:30:00] CapTrust in our Sacramento office.

I specialize in working with local nonprofits and associations. Annually, we survey private and public nonprofit organizations across the country to better understand challenges they see in today's environment. In our more recent survey, we heard concerns about proper board governance, mission-aligned investment, and how to implement alternate investments.

If you would like a copy of the survey or to discuss your organization, look me up, scottthomas@captrust.com. 

Jeff Holden: At Western Health Advantage, healthcare isn't just a service, it's a shared value. As a nonprofit leader, you need a health plan that understands the importance of mission-driven work. Western Health Advantage is a local not-for-profit health plan that supports organizations like yours with affordable, flexible coverage options for your team.

But what truly sets them apart is their commitment to community, supporting nonprofits like the American Heart Association, Sacramento [00:31:00] Ballet, and the Crocker Art Museum's Pay What You Wish Sundays. With access to top-tier providers and dedicated local support, Western Health Advantage is more than a health plan.

It's a partner in your purpose. Explore your options today at westernhealth.com. Western Health Advantage, healthcare with heart, designed for those who give back. Let's talk about funding, 'cause obviously it takes money to do something like this. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Indeed it does. 

Jeff Holden: How does the organization sustain itself? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: So Fairytale Town's annual budget, this is 2026, is around 3 million bucks.

And so the model is you have the core revenue stream is admission and annual memberships. And so you look at maybe about a third of that will come from the gate- Mm-hmm ... either in the annual memberships or in walk-up. Then there are special [00:32:00] pop-out events and weekends, so we'll charge double the ticket price or close to it for five Halloween weekend days when the park is, like, completely decked out.

It is the place to go in Halloween, in- October ... Sacramento in October- Yeah ... Halloween season. And then the same thing, we have two holiday time weekends where the park is decked out for, you know, the end of year Christmastime, New Year's festivities. And so there's earned income there as well. Same thing with summer camps, right?

Over the course of nine weeks of summer camps, and there'll be five or six sections each week. 

Jeff Holden: And I'm imagining you probably sell those things out, right? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: We do, and it's a couple hundred bucks. Yeah. Like, we're actually, I think, a pretty good deal compared to what a week of summer camp costs, uh, across the market at large.

But it's still a good revenue source for us. And then there's the fundraising, right? Mm-hmm. So we're out [00:33:00] writing grants. I should probably stop and, and say something that, um, isn't obvious to everyone, which is that Fairytale Town is its own standalone nonprofit organization. So this $3 million budget, like, we're doing that.

It's true that we're on City of Sacramento parkland in William Land Park, and it, those who Had come to believe Fairytale Town was part of the city were correct up until 1997. 

Jeff Holden: Oh, so it actually was- Yes ... a city-owned property. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: The origin story of Fairytale Town is actually pretty interesting. There's a sister organization, a like park called Children's Fairyland in Oakland, which opened, I think, in 1951, let's say.

And in the early '50s, a Junior League of Sacramento member visited down there and came back and said to her fellow Junior Leaguers, "We ought to have a park like that here," and she was serious. And [00:34:00] they eventually organized themselves and struck a deal with the City of Sacramento, which said, "If we build Fairytale Town, will you run Fairytale Town?"

As I understand it, the zoo was already running the zoo across the street, and so they said sure. And so when Fairytale Town- The, 

Jeff Holden: the city was running the zoo. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: The city, yes. Yes. Gotcha. Was, and did, and would until 1997. So Fairytale Town opens in 1959 as a program of the city, and like the zoo, Fairytale Town continues as a city-run organization until 1997, when we both got spun off and became our own standalone nonprofits.

Which is all the backstory to why we're out fundraising and why, you know- Sure ... those who don't know need to understand that this actually is a 501[c][3] nonprofit organization that seeks individual donations, grant support, you know, f- [00:35:00] seeks, you know, foundation- Mm-hmm ... support. And we throw a couple fundraisers every year.

We have an online auction that's pretty successful, and we have a brew fest every August that is also- At the park. 

Jeff Holden: That almost seems sacrilegious. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: You know, it is 

Jeff Holden: funny. I like it. It's a- It- ... parental time for the park, but it's, it's funny to think, okay, we got all these, this, this, this beer f- circulating in this kids' park, you know?

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. It's, uh, the... It makes a little more sense when you know the backstory. So we used to have a music concert every summer, and the place would be mobbed- Sure ... because they'd get, like, a top-level entertainer, and so they sold alcohol. And then in a year in the mid-20, it might've been 2015, 2016, something like that, the act canceled.

And so The organization leadership at that time pretty wisely says like, "Okay, well instead of a concert that also serves beer, what if it [00:36:00] were a beer-themed event that also had live music?" And thus was born the Tails and Ales Brewfest. And so yeah, now people sign up. And I'll tell you something, families, the young families really love it.

They don't need to get a babysitter. They can get their friends together, the kids' friends who they know from the neighborhood or their cousins. Perfect. And they get to come to Fairytale Town. We're getting-- We're pouring samples. Like, no one is getting beer steins full. Right. Like, this is not a rager really.

It's not 

Jeff Holden: Oktoberfest. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: No. But we got a great band. You know, it's a great summer night and a fun band, and people are getting a little bit either of beer, there's also some like kombucha and non-alcoholics and- Sure. It's just a nice summer. There's some food trucks. It's a really nice summer event that's family-friendly.

And so that is another piece of the fundraising puzzle by which we cobble together three million bucks in revenue to sustain ourselves for another year. 

Jeff Holden: And I think you make a [00:37:00] perfect case in point for why nonprofits exist. Because as a city-run entity, it'd be gone. You know, budgets would have been cut.

You know, city budgets change, and they've been, you know, dynamic since 1997 for sure, and where we are today, you know, they're looking at what can we get rid of, what can we do, what can we change, transition, et cetera. That would have been long gone. But because it went into the hands of the community with community leadership and nonprofit status and the ability to go out and raise funds for a, a very valuable cause, purpose, mission, it survives.

And it, and it- Yeah ... thrives. I mean, today, from where you were, it's doing so much more. The two locations cracks me up too because who knows that, right? Right. Fairytale Town. No, there's, there's, there's another place that's attached to Fairytale Town. And, and look at what's happening. Yeah, and then we don't know that there might not be a third place at some point in time, right?

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Would love that someday. Yeah, and I should say on the subject of community partners, I was quite negligent because even [00:38:00] though we were spun off to our own nonprofit, we're still on William Park land. City property, yes. And the city of Sacramento is a very supportive partner. 

Jeff Holden: Yes. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: So it's not like they just swore us off and said, "Go sink or swim on your own."

We're very 

Jeff Holden: grateful. No, I think they were wise in, in doing that 'cause they recognized the value of it. They, they saw, hey, we, we can't... This at some point's gonna become an anchor. If we don't do something with it, it changes. And certainly the, the zoo, you know, we, we have to do something with that. So to their credit as well, yes, I, I- Yes

I don't want to disparage them in any way, shape, or form. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes, agreed. They're, they're a very supporting partner, and the- and, you know, and they're smart, too. I mean, Fairytale Town is, I believe, the fifth-most visited tourist attraction- Attraction 

Jeff Holden: in Sacramento? ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: in 

Jeff Holden: Sacramento. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: I mean, yeah, I think people are, are probably surprised to know that at over 200,000 visitors a year, we're roughly comparable to the Crocker, which is- 

Jeff Holden: A little different.[00:39:00] 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, and that's great. Like, I want them to be very successful. Absolutely, yes. I want us both to be very successful, but I think sometimes people- Oh, do I- Right, the Crocker is our top arts institution. It's, it's probably is our top cultural- Yes ... institution, and I have to remind people. But you know, Fairytale Town serves just as many people.

Jeff Holden: I, I'm seeing an event as we're on this funding question. There's an event between the Crocker and Fairytale Town. Folks, it's out there for some of you to come up with an idea that makes sense for both organizations to benefit, you know, art in the park of some way, shape, or form, but the park is Fairytale Town.

Let's- 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: They do, they do fantastic work. 

Jeff Holden: They do. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And lots of it with youth too, so go Crocker. 

Jeff Holden: See? There's something there. There's something there. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Fair enough. 

Jeff Holden: Let's, let's talk about an opportunity. This is we, we get to shift gears just a little bit. Money, no object. You, you see a lot of youth, you see these programs, you see the demand, you see the opportunities.

What else could you do? Some philanthropic-minded individual says, "I love this thing for the kids. I came and had my fir- fourth, fifth, [00:40:00] seventh, whatever birthday there. My kids had their birthday there, and, and I've bequeathed all this money to them. I'm gonna give you a blank check. What would you do with it?"

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. It's such an interesting question. It's actually kind of a hard question, right? Yes, it is. Because you live day to day as a manager, like, within constraints, and then it's like, oh, well, what if there actually weren't any constraints? I would say... Boy, that's an interesting question, Jeff. First off, it would be free.

Like, I think one of the, the core things philosophically is that we want Fairytale Town to be accessible for all families, regardless of background, regardless of socioeconomics or geography. And so if money were no object, I would find a way to make sure that everybody, even, you know, families who don't have a way to get to Fairytale Town, that we could bus them or transport them in some way, that we didn't have to charge anything at all so that money could be, would be no object, and that when you came to Fairytale [00:41:00] Town, there were all the things that you know and love already, but even more opportunities.

Like, what if there were a ropes course for older kids, you know? And, and s- like, more outdoors, natural exploration. When I... I have seen some of these ropes courses that are, like, multi-level, and I was just like, "God, those are so cool." Like, that would be so great to be able to have an adventure playground at our site instead of over at a satellite location That's good too, but more is better.

Jeff Holden: Yes. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And if our cafe served nothing but nutritious food and was a model for, you know, like culinary wellness, I, 

Jeff Holden: I- Oh, we need to get 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: you hooked 

Jeff Holden: up with Alchemist CDC. We'll put them in there- We- ... and have their students do it. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. You know, we, we do have our little cafe, but it could use a makeover. 

Jeff Holden: Uh-huh.

Kevin Smith-Fagan: But just anything that we could do to better [00:42:00] support parents and their kids, that's what we would do if money were no object. 

Jeff Holden: I, I, I love that, and it would give that experience to so many more who today just can't do it. And, and for those two reasons, either monetarily they can't do it, and if they could afford it, maybe they can't get the kids there.

They just don't have the, the flexibility or the capacity of travel. Yeah. And so many of our inner kids, so many of our inner city kids, our youth, they just don't get to experience things. And I know a lot of the school systems are working so hard to get them out into the environment and nature, and you're right in Land Park next to the zoo, and you have animals, things these kids will, in some cases, maybe never see if they don't see it at Fairytale Town.

So I, I love that. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. And I should also mention, I, that It would be, it's a wonderful goal working toward to... It would be ideal if every [00:43:00] family or every child who came saw their culture or themselves reflected at Fairytale Town. Yes. And so that is another aspirational goal for the park, is to continue becoming more culturally diverse so that more groups that a folk or Fairytale from their tradition- Yes

is a play set at Fairytale Town. Right. 

Jeff Holden: And for both reasons. One, they can see themselves in it, but secondly, for the kids who don't, who are exposed to it. Hundred- Because they see these kids- ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: hundred 

Jeff Holden: percent ... in the community. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. 

Jeff Holden: Wow, very cool. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Right. So w- right, we installed in 2018 the, a play set that was based on an African folk figure, Anansi's Web.

And yes, for the kids who come from that cultural tradition, it's like, "Oh, it's Anansi. I love Anansi." But for everybody else, it's like, "Oh, I don't know about Anansi. Let me- What is that? ... learn about Anansi," and they come away richer. 

Jeff Holden: Yes. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And so everyone gains from that experience. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. That, uh, [00:44:00] yeah, that, that's just spectacular.

We need to do something with that. That has to happen in some way, shape, or form. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yes. Well, we're working on it, actually. The, the current park strategic plan identifies, which is 2025 through 2028, identifies three key pillars, and one is to introduce new cultures that are not yet reflected at Fairytale Town.

So we're working on introducing a play set that I think might be in place at the end of 2027 that is a Chinese folk figure, the Monkey King. 

Jeff Holden: Mm. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Right now, there isn't a Chinese folk figure represented in Fairytale Town, and you look at how our region has changed, it's not the same. We're- No ... we're not the same population makeup.

We're much more culturally rich and diverse than we were in 1959, and- Yeah ... so we have an opportunity at the park to say, "I, well, there isn't a Latino play set yet at Fairytale Town. How do we make that happen?" Mm-hmm. Because boy, that's really gonna resonate with lots of [00:45:00] our- 

Jeff Holden: Sure ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: families. Uh, so that's a big one.

Adding some things that make Fairytale Town fun and relevant for kids a little bit longer in their childhood. So if kids- 26, 

Jeff Holden: 27, 28. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, not quite to AARP. 

Jeff Holden: Right. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: But, uh, if we can get another couple years, yeah. You know, I mean, there is, there is a time in a child's growth where Mary's Little Lambs, you know, feels like kiddy stuff.

Jeff Holden: Yes. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: But we're putting in a climbing wall this summer to... Traverse wall, so you navigate it horizontally- Oh ... more than you navigate vertically, but that's a n- new 2026 installation that will be challenging for kids who are a little bit older, and say, "Oh, you know, Fairytale Town's still cool." Mm-hmm. "Like, I can still find something good to do at Fairytale Town."

That's both the physical things and also programmatic. Like, we've introduced some educational programs that... Like, art club and a science club [00:46:00] that kids who are a little bit older, they'll dig. And then the third thing speaks to what if money were no object, which is to be very intentional a- about reaching out to communities who we may wrongly assume know and love Fairytale Town.

There are lots of pockets of immigrant communities of folks where English maybe is a second language, or they, uh, if they're n- new to the area, there are always a lot of transplants in Sacramento. Mm-hmm. So there, there are plenty of people who actually didn't grow up with Fairytale Town, and we gotta find a way to make sure that they know we want their kids coming and having a Fairytale Town experience.

Fairytale Town is for everybody. Uh, but if everybody doesn't know about it- 

Jeff Holden: Right ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: then they're missing an opportunity, and so are we. 

Jeff Holden: When we had our, our discovery call, you had an interesting answer to this question, and the, the question was y- what is the greatest need? [00:47:00] Oh, I think the park's greatest need, honestly, I think it's that 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: awareness.

Yeah. I think it is, it is about being top of mind for everybody. I do think that people who know about Fairytale Town, who grew up in the region or have been in the region a while, know and love Fairytale Town. But they don't know a lot of the things that we've talked about. Yeah. Absolutely. Know about any of the programs that we're doing.

It's like, well, how do we fix that? For the transplants, the, you know, the many cultures that are represented in, in Sacramento- In Sacramento ... where their parents didn't grow up going to Fairytale Town. They're always like, "I don't think I've ever really heard of Fairytale Town." Right. It's like, let's reach out.

It's not enough, I don't think. It's n- I don't think it's enough to just roll the gate open every morning and say, "Hey, whoever comes-" Show up. "... God bless them." We're 

Jeff Holden: here, right? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Like, we wanna build more community relationships with all pockets of the region so that everybody knows about Fairy [00:48:00] Tale Town, and when there are obstacles to taking advantage of it, we figure out a way to solve that.

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: So that is the third of the three strategic pillars that are priorities for Fairytale Town right now. 

Jeff Holden: Well, a- a- and I like that because so often we hear, obviously funding is, for many organizations, the primary need all the time. And, and some is volunteers, and some are well-funded. They all need awareness, and, and th- that's why we exist.

I mean, we are a platform for discoverability to help get that messaging out. But when it becomes one of the needs that you identify as opposed to all the other operational pieces, it happens. You know, you will be doing those things to make yourself more aware, and this is, this is just one of those. So I, I, I really appreciate that answer because, to your point, you, you, you just summarized it.

Let's engage more kids and families in the Fairytale Town experience. Yes. It's-- Fairytale Town is for all [00:49:00] kids, it's for all families, and the challenge is for us to make sure that everybody can benefit. We've talked in generalizations of families' experiences, kids' experiences, you know, what that's like.

You're at the park every day. Matter of fact, when I was there and the place was closing up, you were c- you, you literally were closing the gate. You were locking the gate. And Tells you how I stay to the end, too. It's like I can't stop talking, you know, much to the chagrin of my wife. But nonetheless, the a- ability to see everybody really from open to close, you see a lot of families come through.

You see kids come through. Give us an, an impact, a visceral, literal human impact that you've seen, either a kid came through a camp or a program or the, the park itself. Oh, goodness. Well, we just got an email 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: at the end of summer camp [00:50:00] program in 2026, and the mom was reaching out to say thanks because her little girl was coming up on kindergarten in fall of 2026 and had come to summer camp, and the mom was thanking the Fairytale Town staff for the dramatic growth that this little girl, who I gather was somewhat introverted, a little bit withdrawn, and not a risk-taker, had experienced over the course of the summer.

And the mom was just gushing about it. She would always come home and tell us what she did that day and who she played with, and by... You know, we're looking at each other like, "This is unbelievable." The kid was in a drama camp, and they staged a play. It was Three Little Pigs, and the mom was, like, in tears because the, the child that she knew only a couple months before could never have done that, [00:51:00] and she just wanted to make sure that we knew how important this experience had been for her daughter, and she, the mom, is saying, like, "I see now that she's gonna be okay in kindergarten."

I-- Like, she Learned how to form friendships. She learned how to work together. She loved the camp staff, and so, like, she's gonna have... Not be afraid or intimidated by teachers. Like, she's gonna embrace the experience, and she just wanted to thank us. And her name was Camille, and so I- The 

Jeff Holden: daughter or the mom?

Kevin Smith-Fagan: The daughter. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And so I, Camille is a, a recent example. There's a regular stream of them, but it was a really lovely email to get. Just lovely to, to hear from a mom who observed how much impact having her child at Fairy [00:52:00] Tale Town, like, made over the summer. That was really wonderful. And 

Jeff Holden: you get to see that every day.

Yes, pe- Th- tho- those things are happening every day. You may not hear about them, 'cause we only get to hear such a small, small percentage, unfortunately, but that's just the nature of humankind. But when you do, it makes such a difference to know, "Hey, you know what? We're on the right track. We're, we're, we're doing the right stuff."

And certainly 67 years tells you something right is going on. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. People, when they hear that I work at Fairytale Town or I, like, I'll wear the shirt out in a store. "Oh, you work at Fairytale Town?" It's like, "I do, actually, yeah." Yeah. They say, "Oh, that must be so great. That must be a great place to work."

And, and it is. When I get to get up and go take a break, I get to walk outside into this colorful, beautiful fantasy land populated with, like, children who are just gushing with joy, and it's, like, so happy. It's just such a nice place to be that, yeah, if [00:53:00] 70% of the job is gonna be the same, it's the other 30%.

The people that you're with and the, the place physically that you get to be is really a big part of happiness. And, and that word, I think, circles back to why Fairytale Town is important. Like, kids who are engaged in imaginative play or they're getting outside or they're being healthy, they're actually happy.

There was a really interesting story in the paper, I don't know, week before last or something. It basically said People s- whose hobbies take a little work are more gratified, they're happier than people who, I don't know, like, like movies. They, like, watch TV or movies. By the way, I love movies and TV, so I count myself in both groups.

But I thought that was really interesting, that happiness, it takes a little work, but, but it [00:54:00] comes from doing something that is, uh, like a little bit challenging. So what I see when I see the k- you know, when people ask me, it's like, "Well, what difference does Fairytale Town make in a child's life?" That, like expressing imagination or creativity, that's problem-solving.

That's like growing up and later being able to look at a novel problem and conceive a novel solution, right? That is just what imagination is for grownups. The self-confidence that you see from kids, you know, at the adventure playground, figuring out how to make something and then making it and learning a s- you know, a skill or two along the way, like that sense of agency that's like, "I can do stuff.

Like, I don't have to depend on others. I, Kevin, I can-- I'm learning that I can actually do things in this world." Like, super important. Mm-hmm. And also that sense of empathy. I think pretend, when you play pretend, you're [00:55:00] putting yourself in other people's shoes, and being able to do that is the fundamental block of emp- of human empathy.

Mm-hmm. Like, so like these kids will grow up with an important, you know, human trait that will serve them very well in life. So basically, Fairytale Town's fantastic, and everybody should come. 

Jeff Holden: Right. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Thank you for having me. 

Jeff Holden: And, and for those who aren't watching, we're having some fun in the conversation, but when, Kevin, you shared the happy part, y- y- you were like a kid.

I mean, your arms are widespread. Your, your face is lit up. Absolutely. Your, your eyes are sparkling. I'm just looking at you going, "This guy loves what he's doing." 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Absolutely. He loves what he's doing. I get to smile and say hi to kids all day, every day when I'm walking out in the park, and it's- Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a wonderful vocation.

It really is. 

Jeff Holden: We're, we're gonna transition here for a, a bit to Kevin, and we're gonna go beyond the mission- 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, God. And, and- [00:56:00] Well, this is, uh- ... 

Jeff Holden: ask you a few, few- 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Much less wonderful- Yes. ... much less colorful, much less imagined than Fairytale 

Jeff Holden: town, but, uh- I know, we don't know that, do we? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Okay, here we go. 

Jeff Holden: So I'm just gonna ask you a couple of questions- Sure

just so people get to know you a little bit differently. Um, I think they can hear your energy and they can hear your enthusiasm for what you do in this conversation, but how about some other parts of it? So quick stuff, coffee or tea? Ugh, coffee. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: It should be tea probably some more- ... but it's coffee. 

Jeff Holden: All right.

You've been around a long time. Favorite local restaurant? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, boy, I'll tell you what. This place Casablanca, which is at W- Watt and Fair Oaks, I just love it. 

Jeff Holden: I don't know it. I'm gonna have to check it 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: out. Yeah, it's fantastic. 

Jeff Holden: Hidden talent 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, man. A hidden talent. I... It's not that hidden. I mean, I can play guitar, and I sing in a band.

Jeff Holden: I think that, that right there is something I, I didn't know until I tripped on it through another conversation. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah, I don't... I mean, uh, whether or not that's [00:57:00] hidden, I guess it probably is. Sure. And I'm not that good, I should be honest. 

Jeff Holden: That, that doesn't 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: matter. But I do like, uh- Does 

Jeff Holden: your staff 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: know you do it?

I do enjoy... Yeah, they do. Okay. They know that I- Okay. I've, I'm in a community band, like this rock band, of... I'm in a rotary club, and there were critical mass in this band. It was like, "Oh, that guy plays drums? No kidding. She can sing. We should have a band." And- Well, 

Jeff Holden: I'm gonna call out one of those people too, because she's a big executive director for an organization, and that is Carrie Wood, who runs the Sac Region Community Foundation.

Yes. You're in the same band. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Carrie Wood is the CEO of the Sacramento Region Community Foundation. But yes, she's also a very talented musician. In particular, she's a really outstanding flute player. 

Jeff Holden: Mm-hmm. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: And, and that's kinda cool to get to see people in a different light. 

Jeff Holden: How about guilty pleasure? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, my goodness.

Guilty pleasure. One of my sons and I can't stop hate-watching reruns of this cop show [00:58:00] called "Blue Bloods." 

Jeff Holden: Oh, I know the show. Uh. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: It's like, I'm not even sure we like this show. Tom Selleck. We just like ourselves- Isn't that Tom Selleck? ... when we're watching this show. Yes. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: So I'd say that, yeah, that's a little bit of a guilty pleasure.

Oh, that's, that's a great one. I also was- You're gonna 

Jeff Holden: hear about this, you know that. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: I know. I will pay the price for that, but it's true. I'm also, like, a super music nerd. Like, I'm really into music trivia, and it's so horrible for the people around me, because when I, like, find out an interesting fact, everyone else around me has to know it.

Like, it's not good enough for me to know it. I have to browbeat them into knowing about this band that Van Morrison was in before he became Van Morrison. Or like, "Did you know that Neil Diamond wrote 'Red Red Wine'? Like, what?" Like, yeah. So I'm a total music nerd. 

Jeff Holden: Who believed in you at a pivotal point? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, man.

That is a, um... Thank you. That is a, a really interesting question. I would say that I'm very fortunate to grow up [00:59:00] in a, in a supportive household, and both sides, my mom and dad's parents both lived within five miles. This was in Cleveland, Ohio. And so I got to see them both a lot, and both sides were really great.

Like, I had a really happy, good childhood. But my aunt and uncle on my mother's side, like, when I went over there, I just felt like, so special. They were so interested in me as a person, and they would ask me questions, and they, like, actually really valued, like, what I had to say. And I think that was r- I think that mattered a lot.

I think I came to believe when I was young that, like, I had value in this world. 

Jeff Holden: That's so true, and 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: how coincidental that you end up where you are. Yeah. And my [01:00:00] aunt, by the way, loves Fairytale stuff. So, like, I'll-- on a pretty day, I'll just take a picture of something pretty, and I'll text Aunt Roz and be like, "I just want you to know."

Jeff Holden: Last 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: question. 

Jeff Holden: One 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: thing that you're excited right 

Jeff Holden: now 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: about 

Jeff Holden: that's not work. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh, one thing that I'm excited right now that is not work. Well, I'm a super baseball follower, and I have a National League team, and they're doing well, and that's Philadelphia. And I have an American League team, and they're doing well, and that is Cleveland.

The fact that they're both winning has me really excited. So that's one thing. And then another thing is The band. I get to be in this band with my friends. It's called the Rotary Roadies, and Carrie, you mentioned Carrie, is in this band, and we're having fun. We're pretty decent, and as a growth [01:01:00] experience, like I just feel like that's good for me.

It's like good for me to have to exercise that part of my brain. Yeah. Like some, some artistic side, however rudimentary it might be, to like, yeah, to be doing something artistic is... Especially when it works. Like if you sound good, it's like- 

Jeff Holden: Even better, right? ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: look at us go. 

Jeff Holden: So key takeaway for everybody listening is music, bands, and baseball.

We got that. Yeah. Among, among a few other things. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: I also 

Jeff Holden: have a fantastic wife- Bad, bad, bad TV ... and 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: three kids I'm really proud of, but anyway, back to baseball. 

Jeff Holden: Kevin, somebody's interested in learning more about Fairytale Town, the programs, the classes, the schedule, whatever it is, what's the best way to, to learn?

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Oh gosh, just reach out. You know, go to the website. Uh, it's cool that the website is up here on the screen. 

Jeff Holden: Yeah. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Or like just email me. Like we're not so big that you will get, you know, lost at and no one's ever gonna respond to [01:02:00] you. Yeah. We're, 

Jeff Holden: we're- And, and a pretty simple URL, fairytaletown.org. .

Kevin Smith-Fagan: org. 

Jeff Holden: Just that, and we will have that in the show notes too so everybody can find it.

You don't have to worry about pulling over. Over 60 years of service to the community, which is, again, mind-boggling in so many ways. Generations of kids, kids then bringing their kids now in what is a digital, virtual screened world is... I- it's just anathema to, to logic at some point. You're like, "Really? Is this happening?"

So thank you for what you 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: and that staff... How many people? So 20 full-time, and then there's usually about 20 part-time- 

Jeff Holden: Okay ... 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: until summer rolls around, and then once we get to- And then volunteers and 

Jeff Holden: everything else, or you staff up? 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: There are volunteer-- Well, we do staff up for- Both ... camp, and, you know, like, well, there's something like 80 people on the payroll at the height of summer.

Jeff Holden: Amazing. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. 

Jeff Holden: For all of you, because it takes, it takes everybody doing their bit and their piece to make that [01:03:00] experience what it becomes for that family, that child, who a generation later will be coming with their family, their children. And I can comfortably say this now because it's been such a run: thank you.

Thank you for what you do for that experience, for something that's fun but is really making change in our community in such a subtle way. 

Kevin Smith-Fagan: Yeah. Well, thank you for inviting me. It's always fun to, uh, to talk about Fairytale Town, fundamentally a happy place with a wonderful mission, and, uh, it also felt like I just spent time chatting with a friend.

So thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it. You're welcome. Let's go make something better. Right on. 

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